Safer Shake and bake method to be reviewed.

[hirozaru]

I was given this recipe by a friend chemist, telling me SnB is dangerous, and this should be safer.

There are a few things in there I find very interesting, others I am very puzzled of.
Why most people says to only use Ammonium Nitrate, but he is against it ?


First, it assumes you have done the PSE extractions from your pills. I can't comment whether it will work from crushed pills.

And I can't directly share the extraction methods, since it depends on specific pills ingredients and filling.

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I'm still against the SnB as it scientifically requires pressure-proof equipments but as you insist I'll at least guide you through a lower risk procedure.

1.choosing the right flask for the reaction, what i recommend is an old fire extinguisher but make sure it completely seals off (preferably with a control valve that opens and closes on demand).

2.Dont use ammonium nitrate because it has a higher tendency to explode. instead use Ammonium Sulfate or Ammonium chloride as a safe ammonia source.
3.The Base would be Sodium hydroxide of course. always use a saturated solution to minimize the amount of water used in the reaction as it consumes lithium quickly and generates heat.

4.Add non-polar solvent to ammonia salt (insoluble)
5.then Add sodium hydroxide solution gradually (not all at once) as it generates heat quickly.

6.The reaction releases Ammonia Gas, Sodium Sulfate as a by-product.

7.keep the reaction flask in an Ice Bath the whole time. it's very helpful to reduce the pressure needed to liquify ammonia.

****Slowly open the valve every 2 or 3 minutes to decrease the pressure.

****this process will require about 20-30 minutes to liquify ammonia.


Now for SnB :

1.Dump in all pseudoephedrine, ephedrine, phenylpropanamine or other substituted beta-hydroxyphenethylamines .

Note : you can use the non-polar layer from extraction Tek but the resulting product will be less pure.

2.Get lithium Metal Strip (Always Keep It Saved In Non-Polar Solvent to prevent oxidation and fire ). cut it with scissors to about 2x2cm size and slowly add 2-3 pieces of lithium to the reaction flask every 5-8 minutes. shake the flask gently after adding pieces of lithium to get the amine (non-polar layer) in contact with free lithium ions (in liquid gas aqueous layer)

Note : Open the Valve to depressurize the container before opening the seal. this is extremely important to keep you safe.
Always Seal the container again after adding pieces of metal.

3.This Process will take about 40-120 Minutes .

4.After that. depressurize the container and move everything to a beaker, quickly get un-reacted lithium out of the solution and put it non-polar solvent to prevent fire.

5.the solution will have brown color (indicates reacted lithium). dispose of aqueous layer (contains ammonia) and keep the non-polar layer (contains the product free base).

6.Wash the Fuel layer with water 3 times to get rid of suspended ammonia (necessary step. if you skip this step the end product will have Ammonium chloride mixed with it)

7.use H2SO4 And table salt to bubble HCL Gas into the fuel layer.

8.Resulting salt is insoluble and will immediately precipitate.

9.wash the product with freezing cold acetone.

Last and very important Note : it's important to use the salt form (pseudoephedrine hydrochloride) in this reaction.
if you decided to use a freebase in fuel form you'll have to use ammonium chloride as a source of ammonia.

Be careful with the whole thing. I'm still against it but if you're willing to do it you're gonna do it. I'm only helping you reduce the risk when working with chemicals.

## Measurements

these measurements are enough to reduce 3000mg of pseudo.
1. add 36g of sodium hydroxide to 75ml of water and make sure everything dissolves and solution returns to room temperature .
2. For Ammonium chloride 53g is needed. for ammonium sulfate 66g is needed (both gives the same amount of ammonia gas)
3. For Fuel, 50ml is more than enough.
4. if additional gas is needed (container is too big to pressurize), a mixture of 2.5g NaOH (solid form) + 4g ammonia salt is added directly to the reaction without adding water. this ratio 2.5/4 can be added repeatedly every 3 minutes with gentle mixing until enough liquid is collected (can be repeated up to 35 times)
5. lithium: one strip from CR123A Battery is more than enough for 3,000mg

 

[Frit Buchner]

initially it looks viable. I didn't calculate the figures. I Want to mention that you don't need a saturated solution, you CAN Mix the NaOH and the ammonium Salt dry and drip water on it. The reaction makes Water that will keep it going then you only need 1/2 a gram(half A battery worth) of lithium. also plastic water bottles(the thinones) are designed to handle over 100 psi and a Soda bottle 130psi but CAN usually handle 150 psi Anmonia is liquid at room temp at 100 psi. they don't spontaniously explode they strech first. I've Seen A 2 liter bottle go from 12" tall to 24" tall before it Burst. When it starts stretching is the time to vent it(or when you can't dent it with your thumb)

 

[Frit Buchner]

the ammonium ratios are wrong 53 grams of NH3CI is the same AS 132 grams(NH3)²SO⁴. when one math is bad several are usually bad And. often it means the author CAN'T balance a reaction, which is a bad sign

 

[hirozaru]

the ammonium ratios are wrong 53 grams of NH3CI is the same AS 132 grams(NH3)²SO⁴. when one math is bad several are usually bad And. often it means the author CAN'T balance a reaction, which is a bad sign

Frit Buchnerdon't we hear stories of people doing shake and bake in their cars ? is this not true? What happens if the ratios are not precise? Impurities? or it adds waste? or it just fails ?

whats the difference between using Ammonium Nitrate, Sulfate or Chloride ?

 

[Frit Buchner]

don't we hear stories of people doing shake and bake in their cars ? is this not true? What happens if the ratios are not precise? Impurities? or it adds waste? or it just fails ?

whats the difference between using Ammonium Nitrate, Sulfate or Chloride ?

hirozaruYes people do it in their cars, backpacks basically anywhere. The woods is often an attractive place. Usually s&b method can't be accurately calculated because the reaction is not controlled and the chemicals are not pure. Some methods utilize whole crushed pills or even Whole uncrushed pills. There are multiple reagents variously used, if you add water that burns a lot of lithium so I've seen recipes from half a AA battery to 2AA batteries basically there's 1 gram in a battery (0.94g according to Energizer referring to advanced lithium AA's 15 years ago ) per 5000 mg.(2 boxes often).
In this particular scenario the difference between sulfate chlidr and nitrate is little because all you are doing is Cracking it to release the ammonia , but I imagine Nh⁴Cl+NaOH=NH³(g), NaCl, and H²O, which has a couple of consequences. It adds water to fuel further reaction and water also eats your lithium. (NH³)²SO⁴+NaOH=Na²SO⁴, 2NH³, 2H²O. Note sodium sulfate is made here and is a good drying agent. Bonding 8 water molecules per molecule so ammonium sulfate is definitely going to need some water. Then NH⁴NO³+ NaOH=Nh³ gas. H²O, and NaNo³. Sodium nitrate, which looks like it might be able to steal a little lithium. None of them make or break a reaction. Having too little could result in an incomplete reaction and too much will just leave more trash in your gear. The only risk of total failure is in not making enough pressure to liquefy and not making your solvated electrons ( lithium bronze).
THE PRIMARY THING IS DOES IS SOW DOUBT IN THE ABILITY OF THE AUTHOR. I have seen a lot of recipes that definitely weren't proven because they are fatally flawed in one way or another. A lot of people take a huge risk and waste money on bad recipes. You don't have to be successful to burn your house down and go to prison.

 

[Frit Buchner]

the ratio of NAOH to ( NH3)²So⁴ should be 1:3 AND to NH³ CL the ratio is 3:4

 

[pugzarmyl]

the ratio of NAOH to ( NH3)²So⁴ should be 1:3 AND to NH³ CL the ratio is 3:4

Frit BuchnerSo does the synthesis work? I want to make meth but ammonium nitrate is hard to come by so I want to use ammonium chloride.

 

[Frit Buchner]

So does the synthesis work? I want to make meth but ammonium nitrate is hard to come by so I want to use ammonium chloride.

pugzarmylMy opinion is, as written, no. The second step 7 ( opening the reactor repeatedly isn't going to work. As soon as you let the pressure off the ammonia will turn to gas, your solvated electron will be destroyed instantly and you are back to square 1. Once you add the lithium, you can't let the pressure off. Other problems I see with it include generally speaking 1 gram of lithium is technically 5 times what you need and usually in use twice what you need, all the extra water in the NaOH "saturated solution" is going to eat through a shit load of it and there's no reason to use a saturated solution as the reaction makes enough water to complete itself once it kicks off. I haven't even attempted to calculate that as there's no way to calculate what is going to happen to the stuff inside a reaction inside a vessel you can't see into but there's definitely enough water in this scheme to kill it